From investigations into Wikileaks and Scientology, Elizabeth Holmes and the war in Afghanistan, Alex Gibney has made some of the defining documentaries of our time. So it makes sense he’d now turn his attention as a producer to one of the defining political figures of our time: long-serving Israel prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
In The Bibi Files, Gibney and director Alexis Bloom offer a devastating dissection of the right-wing leader. They build a case against him from never-before-seen leaked interrogation tapes during Netanyahu’s ongoing corruption trial about alleged gifts in return for political favors.
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The recordings (which include not just Netanyahu but family members and many prominent figures in Israeli society) vividly show how the prime minister thinks and operates — a relevant portrayal as he and far-right members of his coalition continue to prosecute a war in Gaza nearly a year after Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel.
With their as-yet undistributed film making waves at its world premiere at TIFF 2024 this past week, Gibney and Bloom sat down at a restaurant here to talk with THR about its secretive production. The conversation has been edited for brevity and clarity.
You have some incredible footage here. How did all this come about?
ALEX GIBNEY This whole thing starts with a leak. It was mid-2023. A source sends me this footage totally out of the blue. Right away I knew it was special. But now I had this material and now I need to raise money but I can’t tell funders anything. I can only say ‘I’ve got something good and it’s a secret but can you give me money anyway?’
Um, how did those conversations go?
GIBNEY They were certainly difficult. But we did get some to say “we trust you to go forward and see how you do.” And then we had other people come on board and then Alexis came on board.
BLOOM When Alex calls you know you have something so my first reaction was yes even without seeing it. But it was important to keep it confidential for a long time. If you start announcing it then it’s like “hey, come to the office, Mossad.” Even anyone who participated — I didn’t want to tell them too much because I didn’t want to endanger them.
You originally intended to make this film about the Netanyahu government’s judicial reform efforts and the massive backlash to them in Israeli society. Then Oct. 7 happened.
BLOOM Even when it was about the prospect of judicial reform it was a big story, since his corruption was well-known. I mean, you’re observing the unspooling of human behavior over thousands of hours of footage. But then Oct. 7 happened — I remember calling Alex and saying, “Is this the same film? It’s so terrible what happened — can we conceive of it in the same way?” And Alex, to his credit, just said “let’s take a pause and see what happens.” He encouraged me to go Israel, which I did in November, to talk to people and see what they thought.
What did folks say?
BLOOM Half the people there thought this was even more important because now this morally corrupt man was in charge of running a war. And half the people — mainly men in security forces — said we can’t criticize a leader running a war. Maybe to local press you can. But with foreign news outlets there was anxiety. It was clear to me this was still the same story — only now with much higher stakes.
There’s a complex thread you’re arguing between the trial and the war. How would you most concisely describe it?
GIBNEY Netanyahu will do whatever he needs to stay in power because then he won’t be able to keep delaying his trial as easily. And to stay in power he has to do what [far-right coalition members and government members Bezalel] Smotrich and [Itamar] Ben-Gvir say because otherwise they leave the coalition and he loses power. And they want a war that doesn’t end.
And the fact that they’re even in the coalition, you argue in the film, is actually the direct result of the trial.
GIBNEY Exactly. Because after all the corruption allegations came to light, more moderate elements wouldn’t have anything to do with Bibi.
I have the sense, especially after the death of the six hostages two weeks ago and the massive protests that followed, that the Israeli people have had enough of Netanyahu. Does anything give you optimism something will change, regime-wise?
GIBNEY There’s a rage underneath and the country is deeply divided but to stay in power he’s increasing tension — to stay in Israel he’s steering the ship into the reef. It’s a little like George Bush and his war on terror — you say you have to keep going until there are no more terrorists, which of course is a recipe for permanent war.
You say “deeply divided” but the polls consistently show a very large majority of Israelis think Netanyahu and his approach to the war have to go.
BLOOM No question, it’s very empowering to be in the protests. There are remarkable people who are fighting.
GIBNEY And as Alexis pointed out to me yesterday, it’s not so simple that when Netanyahu goes everything’s fine. But so long as he is in power nothing will change. So it’s up to the people of Israel to figure out how they need to put the pressure on him to get him out.
It can be a little glib to make comparisons between different political systems and leaders. But Netanyahu and Trump are often compared. Do you see any legitimate parallels?
GIBNEY I think what you’re seeing in America now is very similar to Bibi in some crucial ways, where the immediate political solution is the exact of opposite of the long-term solution. If you want to whip up votes in America now you say the immigrants are coming and we need stop them. In Israel you say we can’t make a deal [with Hamas] and it does the same thing — it gets you a lot of support in the short term. And it makes long-term solutions less likely.
The populist-outrage model.
GIBNEY I’d call it tribalist outrage. You play to tribalist sympathies because of what it gives you in the short term. And it works until people realize that appeal is actually endangering the country long-term. There are political models of authoritarianism evident throughout the world right now and I think this [Netanyahu situation] fits with that pattern.
In his case it comes with an added element of escapability — Netanyahu has figured out how to pull the levers to stay in power for a long time. Your film gives a glimpse into how he does that…
BLOOM Watching the tapes what strikes me is Bibi’s seeming unending ability to deny any and all knowledge of anything going back ten years. It’s a level of delusional acrobatics I would find impressive if it wasn’t so morally bankrupt.
GIBNEY There’s a line in the film that “to be a good liar you have to have a good memory.” Bibi solves the problem by just always saying he doesn’t remember.
Do you think he actually believes his responses to the police — all the stuff like he didn’t notice the champagne bottles arriving by the caseload, for instance, or all the gifted cigars right when he’s making calls to help the people who sent them to him?
GIBNEY Having been lied to many times by very powerful people I’d say the best liars are the ones who believe in the moment they’re not lying. He’s clearly a great actor but he also needs to construct a belief system that lets him inhabit the role.
Who else stood out to you in these interrogations? I was struck by Sara Netanyahu and how angry she was, and also the cops and how cool they kept it.
BLOOM The cops — I could do a whole cut just on them. The way they keep going, the way they exchange glances. And the way some have not fared well since. As for Sara, her losing her shit is almost a reflex. She doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with it. Now she might — but only after seeing other people’s reaction to it.
It was striking how much she seems to be driving decisions in that household, even on policy matters.
GIBNEY That was one of the revelations in the film — so much of what Bibi does is provoked by his family. You come to understand that for all of his bluster and aggressive posturing he’s a very weak man.
BLOOM There’s a line by Ami Ayalon, the former head of the Shin Bet, that I’m desperate to find a place for in (the final cut of) the film. Ayalon said — and remember he’s a professional analyst of human behavior — that Netanyahu is the best at detecting threats because he’s always afraid. And I think that’s how he’s survived so long — because he’s so good at detecting threats.
GIBNEY So how did he miss 10/7?
BLOOM Because he’s so consumed with personal threats.
Finally, I’m curious about distribution. I know you can’t officially distribute in Israel because there’s a privacy law that would put your source in legal jeopardy. But what about everywhere else — given how unpopular Netanyahu is around the world, it wouldn’t seem hard to make deals. Then again, the biggest streamers also seem especially afraid to take even modest political risks lately.
GIBNEY I do think there’s a calculus of “Oh my God, anything having to do with Israel and Gaza is going to raise a ruckus so better not to deal with it.” Even though everyone is interested — even though the audience wants it. Now, not all networks are the same, and our hope is there’s someone out there with the cojones to say, “yes, it’s important to serve our viewers by giving them dramatic and informative content.” So we’ve got a plan and a backup plan and a backup plan to the backup plan to get this out.
Of course the fear is that if you’re not in the top tier of streamers then your reach is more limited.
GIBNEY That’s true but if you look at other periods of media new players always come on board and new distribution mechanisms pop up to deliver audiences the stories they want. And I think audiences want this.
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