Paul Schrader, at the age of 78, is getting a bit philosophical, a trifle introspective and if the truth be told, he is extremely pessimistic about the future.
The legendary former film critic turned screenwriter-director — his long list of credits include, as screenwriter, Martin Scorsese’s Taxi Driver (1976) and Raging Bull (1980) and, as writer-director, American Gigolo (1980), First Reformed (2017) and this year’s Oh Canada — will arrive in Tuscany this week, as a special guest of the Lucca Film Festival. On Sept. 25 he will teach a Masterclass to university students, and the day after, on Sept. 26, he will receive a lifetime achievement award. There will also be a retrospective of his greatest films.
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THR Roma caught up with Schrader in New York, just before he hopped his flight for Italy. Before dishing the dirt, and talking about the trials and tribulations of John Travolta, Schrader went all metaphysical.
Paul, you are coming to Lucca. In a lifetime of enormous achievement, what would you like to be remembered for most?
I could answer that question, but my answer would be predicated on a belief in the future, which in fact I don’t have. So it is rather hard to talk about one’s legacy if you don’t believe there will be any legacy. I think we have run out of fumes here. Humanity is phasing itself out. Carbon based life has had a good run, but if there are humanoids a hundred years from now who will hear or read these words, then I think that what I am most proud of is having created everything on spec. I started writing on spec with Taxi Driver, and I am still writing today on spec. I have written four films in the last two years on spec. And that gives others a sense that they can do it. Just do it!
Tell me about writing Taxi Driver “on spec” as you put it.
I wrote a good deal before I met Martin. I wrote Taxi Driver in 1972. I met Marty in 1974. I was a film critic at the time in L.A. and I had written a script, a kind of existential cry. I didn’t do anything with it. One day I was interviewing Brian De Palma, and I said to Brian: “You know, I wrote a script.” And Brian said: “Oh, God, no, no, no, please!” And then afterwards, when we were playing chess, he said “Okay, I’ll read your script.” And he gave it to Marty. Brian told Marty the film might be for him.
Apart from Taxi Driver, your other most iconic films are Raging Bull and American Gigolo. Giorgio Armani once told me a story about how you brought John Travolta to Milano to be fitted by Armani for the role that eventually Richard Gere would take over. Do you remember that?
I have a photograph of it. I literally have a photograph of Giorgio taking John’s measurements. And Sergio [Galeotti], who was Armani’s partner both in business and in life for many, many years, was watching. John and I had come down from London where he had opened Grease. And then he dropped out.
But before Travolta dropped out, he had already been fitted by Mr. Armani himself, right?
Yes, yes, yes. The clothes were all in the works. They weren’t made to order or they weren’t bespoke, but they were all from his upcoming line, and it was clearly something that he had in mind because he was getting ready to make his move into North America.
What happened with John Travolta? He had a family crisis?
Three things happened. First, his mother died, which hit him hard. Two, he had his first mega-flop, a film called Moment to Moment, and that rocked him. And the third was I think he had growing anxiety about the gay subtext [of the film]. In fact, the way the story goes, our friend Kit Carson, who was alive then, was living with Karen Black. Karen Black was going to Scientology [meetings]. She comes back and says “Kit, I think John is gonna drop out of Schrader’s movie. He’s been talking about it in meetings.” And so I started sniffing around to see who was available.
John Travolta was sensitive about the gay subtext because he was in Scientology and they didn’t approve of gay subjects?
I don’t know if he’s out now, but he was firmly not out back then. I don’t know if was true or not, but if it were it was certainly not something that would be discussed. No one, you know, really came out until Rupert Everett. He was the first. And he lost a bunch of work because of it.
Anyway. John Travolta dropped out. What did you do?
I liked the idea of Gere. I didn’t think I could get Paramount to go for it. Sure enough, John dropped out, on a Friday afternoon. I told Barry Diller [the boss at Paramount at the time] that I wanted to approach Gere. And he said “No, we’re going to go to Chris Reeve.” So the next day, on Saturday, I called up Chris Reeve’s agent and I said: “I hear you have been offered the script, but I don’t think Chris is right for it.” So I poisoned the well. No way Chris was going to read it! [Laughs mischievously.] And then, on Sunday I went to see Gere. He was staying on the beach. So I go out to Malibu and Gere is busy watching the Super Bowl. I offer him the part. And he is hesitating and says he can’t be rushed into such a big decision on such short notice. So I told him: “The game is going to be over in half an hour, but if I walk out of here the film will probably fall through, and you’re not going to have the chance to make a decision again.” And he said okay, he would do it.
And Diller?
I went over to Barry Diller’s house and left a note in his mailbox. An hour later he called me. I told him that Richard Gere was willing to do American Gigolo, and I told him that Chris Reeve didn’t think it was right for him. I said: “So tomorrow morning the news will hit the trades that John has dropped out. We can’t suppress that news any longer. It is too big. Now after that headline, they will ask for your reaction, Barry. Now I can keep John Travolta tied up for three months, legally, because he walked out ten days before shooting. Legally I can keep him from working for three months. Or, there could be another announcement, Barry, because I know you want John for Urban Cowboy. And I know John wants to do it. So the other announcement you could make is that John has dropped out of American Gigolo, and we are going forward with Richard Gere.” And Barry called me back an hour later and we made the announcement.
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